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Author:
Kirby Dick
For his documentary, This Film Is Not Yet Rated, written by him and his partner Eddie Schmidt, he interviewed among other filmmakers, Kimberly Pierce director of Boys Don't Cry. While her experiences were significant to the theme of his movie, the transcript of the interview proves to be a wrenching picture of the rigor and determination it takes to be an exceptional director and story-teller.
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Kirby Dick is a documentary film director.
His documentary, This Film Is Not Yet Rated, for which the tagline is 'censorship, uncensored' is a scathing, shocking, very funny expose of the MPAA's ratings board and criteria. Recommended viewing.
His documentary, The Twist of Faith, about a man who confronts the trauma of past sexual abuse by a Catholic priest, debuted in competition at the 2005 Sundance Film Festival and was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature.
Dick's previous film Derrida, a complex portrait of the world-renowned French philosopher, premiered at the 2002 Sundance Film Festival, won the Golden Gate Award at the San Francisco Film Festival and was released theatrically.
The prior year, Dick directed the innovative Chain Camera, a portrait of contemporary urban teenage life, which also premiered in competition at the Sundance Film Festival.
In 1997, he directed the internationally acclaimed Sick: The Life & Death of Bob Flanagan, Supermasochist, which won the Special Jury Prize at the Sundance Film Festival and the Grand Prize at the Los Angeles Film Festival. Released by Lion's Gate Films, the film earned both an IFP/West Spirit Award Nomination and an International Documentary Association Nomination for Best Feature Documentary of 1998.
He is an alumnus of the Program in Film and Video Program at California Institute of the Arts.
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View Editor's Note: | | From time to time, we will run articles about the creative process - of directors, actors, producers, writers, designers, HODs -anyone and everyone involved in the business of the art of television and films and all manner of media. |
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PROCESS: INTERVIEW WITH KIMBERLY PEIRCE, DIRECTOR
Kim: Here I was slaving away, showing the film, testing it with audiences. I am very influenced by Capra and his showings to audience's. So I had already had 7 screenings and I had re-cut the film according to the audience's understanding. I was in the editing room finishing up my sound mix and I got a call from my lawyer and producer. I always knew whenever they were both in the room, there was trouble.
"We've got some bad news, you got NC17"- and I thought that was great. I thought "NC17, all the films I love have it!"
They said "No that's not good because the studio won't release your movie if it's NC17."
I was so floored - I didn't understand what that meant. I had gotten the studio happy with my cut and it was a mainstream studio accepting this movie and then I had rating trouble?
They said you have to re-cut the movie to get rid of the NC17 rating. I said, "I can't do that. There has to be a way out if this. I can't imagine that there isn't a way to appeal this". They grumbled. They didn't want me to extend the edit and fight a system they didn't think you're going to win anyway. But they said "Ok there is a way you can appeal this." And they bought us coach seats, me and Brad Simpson, who I adore, and we came out to Hollywood to show up for The Appeal.
Kirby: What were the notes you were getting back from the ratings board?
Kim: This is the weird thing, you don't get to talk to anybody and nothing is written down.
Kirby: Well what were the problems as told to your producer and lawyer?
Kim: There were 3. The first one - after Brandon goes down on Lana he comes up and does this to wipe cum off his mouth, which is very practical. But we got a strike on that. So I said "Ok. What's the problem?"
My producer and lawyer: "We don't know but that's offensive to them."
"So I shoot Brandon in the head and I rape him and do all these things and that's fundamentally ok, but when I do this (wiping mouth), there's a problem here?" "Yes." "Can someone explain?" "No." "Anybody to call?" "No."
Kirby: Ok what's second one?
Kim: Lana's orgasm too long. Who's ever been hurt by an orgasm that was too long? Answer: It's offensive. Me: That's outrageous.
Then I asked what's the third thing? They said the anal rape scene was offensive to audiences. And I said "I'm not cutting it out because that's inherent to the movie." And that's when I got determined to go and appeal because I had been cutting the film for audiences. I asked who is this audience that is having problems with this? under what theory?
I had nobody to give me an answer, and nothing was written down. My producer and my lawyer had told me, which made short-term sense, to just go in and cut the scenes out. But that was like saying to somebody who is trying to make a speech - just don't have audio. If the whole point was to make the meaning clear, I finally made the meaning clear because we had all kind of audiences.
We would bring 150 people in, screen the movie, give them questionnaires and ask "did you understand this, did you understand that?" and we finally got to the point where everybody understood the movie. And that to me, that was a miracle because years before, when I explained over and over who Brandon was and why he desired women, and why he has to dress like a boy, people couldn't understand it; but now because of the movie they could. So to go and eradicate my own meaning made no sense.
Kirby: For me the most shocking cut they wanted you to make is regarding the length of Lana's orgasm. What is offensive about what's seen?
Kim: You're asking me to tell you what they found offensive?
What was great is that prior to the rating process I was working in the East
Village with a predominantly gay, female crew. I lived in a world where female pleasure was the goal, all the time, for us, for them, for everybody. I had no perception that female pleasure could be a problem for anybody. I thought the heterosexual man really liked female pleasure.
When I looked at the so-called offenses over and over again, because I used to be a debater, it was "Ok, let me get in the mind of the other guy." So I looked at other NC17 films. You can totally be violent to somebody but if you bring up sex and pleasure in a way that makes people, or could make people uncomfortable, or makes the board uncomfortable, those are the things you get in trouble for. So when I looked at Lana's orgasm, I was like oh, this is totally about Lana's pleasure! There is something about that that's scaring them, that's unnerving them. The whole objective of the movie was to make somebody whom I loved comprehensible--and it was so painful for me that he was killed the way he was. My whole goal was to make you love Brandon, and the only way to make you love Brandon is if you understood Brandon; so if you diffuse the meaning of understanding him, you're not going to love him.
And to go back to the orgasm - the whole point was to give an orgasm to Lana, this girl from the lower middle class who was complicated about the gay transgender thing, and who lived in a community that did not accept it... if she during this sexual act could lose herself in the pleasure that Brandon was giving her then everything was ok, then that was great. And if I could not only bring her there but I could bring you the audience, visually, orally, bring you there, you too would forget that Brandon and Lana were an aberration, or that Brandon was. So in that moment the movie is about to take everybody on the Brandon trip.
Kirby: It does seem like a seminal point where finally somebody gets what they want.
Kim: And that was Brandon's whole goal. It was to give a woman what she wants, so for the Board to say "bring it down!!" I thought I should show them the first cut because the orgasm was way long then. I would sit there and say, "it's great! Listen to that!" And my producers were like "Kim it's great but it's too long." Finally I screened it a bunch of times and other people said it's too long so I finally already found the perfect point in the print we showed the Board. .
Kirby: Why do you think they had problem with female pleasure?
Kim: I think that if you look at lots of movies... and again, as I said, I love men. Anything I say about female or male, it's not that I'm anti-male. It's just that most movies are written by men, directed by men, and they are mostly the male experience. Even in a sex scene, it's from a male perspective. So I don't think the focus is female pleasure. Female pleasure is seen as unnatural. I think female pleasure is scary in a narrative setting. So if you're not a woman who understands female pleasure, or understands it from a female perspective, you're probably in terrain that's unfamiliar and generally I think unfamiliarity is what breeds these NC17 ratings; because once something has been lived in and accepted in a culture they're not going to give a NC17 for it. I think it's always about you pushing the boundaries. I think that naturally women who are writing from that perceptive are opening up can of worms.
Kirby: Let me go to the anal rape scene. I was kind of fascinated by how both rapes function in a different way on Brandon. Can you talk more about why it was so important and difficult and upsetting that the board would try to go after that scene?
Kim: The murder of Brandon was always painful to me. And the whole reason for making the movie was "How can they do this?" If you look at it that way, the murder was really important but the rape was an even bigger part. This person that they've befriended, how could they eviscerate him? So the representation of that was an extremely important part of why I made the movie and I wanted you to understand it. When they came after the anal rape I wasn't surprised. The studio had wanted to cut it out at first. They had said "You have a vaginal rape, why do you need two?' And I had gone through all these explanations to prove to them and convince them. To take the anal rape out, the movie would have fallen apart. It didn't work without it. People were like "you're being extreme." But I don't think I was. I think there were enough nuances in Brandon's character and in the kind of violence I was trying to portray, that you needed the rape to make it hold together and be authentic. I think they didn't want people to see that. They were like "Well, it might hurt people" - But look at what happened to Brandon!
Kirby: how did you feel about somebody rejecting something you found positive and celebratory?
Kim: I was very hurt by it. I'm not there still but at that time, to have worked so hard against the obstacles of no money, and the obstacles of people saying you can't make a movie like this because it does not make sense. Having gotten a studio, which was totally mainstream - I had met all the top people there and I had convinced them to have the rape the way I wanted it, the gender the way I wanted it, I had passed all these bars and then have the unknown board saying I couldn't have my meaning was like being shut out from a system. You're like "wait! let me talk to you!" I'm making a movie that's not that dangerous or offensive. Look at The General that had a 6min. rape scene that was unwatchable. I've had moms and pops from the middle of the country in my test audiences and they're fine with it so you need to be fine with it. There was a Red flag being raised that didn't need to be.
Yes I was hurt. What you learn to do is protect your person. I mean, obviously you're making art from an extremely personal place, so you kind of say "Ok. That's me, Kim the person, and that's me, Kim the filmmaker who's just trying to tell a story." So I was devastated but I'd carried it within me from the beginning. The whole reason for making the movie was because Brandon was not understood. So the fact that the ratings board didn't understand Brandon and its pieces, to me was an echo of the whole reason why I made movie. That part of me was not up for grabs.
Kirby: Did you re-submit any cuts before you went to the appeal?
Kim: No because I couldn't talk to anybody. It was like "here cut this thing down". It was like trying to make an engine work and somebody saying take the pistons out and resubmit it. I didn't know how to do that. So I made the trip to the Appeals Board. We didn't have money. We were under huge pressure. Keeping the editing room open to re-cut it was not a possibility. We had been accepted at Venice, Toronto and the NY film festival. We were on this extremely tight release schedule. If you've talked to other filmmakers, you know your release/festival schedule is everything; because they're not going to pour money into television advertising. You have to do well in festivals and gather a swell of support. If your movie gets delayed and you have to go back to the editing room and you miss the deadlines for the festivals then your movie is dead. So that was kind of the problem. So we flew in. We had to do it in one day.
I met with the Fox executives who said you have problem on your hands. And I was like "yeah, I have a problem on my hands." And I thought why isn't this their problem? I've made a really good movie and it works, so now what?" They said "you need to go in and you need to argue your case, but you're going to lose...but we're doing everything we can so that you don't lose." And I said "can you give me any advice?" And they said "go ask that guy; he knows everything, he can give you good advice." So I was like "ok what's the advice?" and that guy said "I don't know, you got a tough one on your hands. Try not to be offensive." No one knew.
I was a debater, so I went in with this whole case worked out. I went in with Brad Simpson, who I love, and we made the arguments. I did a15-minute case talking about the 3 offenses and talking about how the narrative needed them and why the offenses were not offenses. And that's pretty much what Fox had said - just argue the story, which made sense. And then this guy got up and argued against us. He didn't use any of his time. He used 30 seconds and his points were all over the place. It was great. We couldn't tell what the organization of the group was. The only thing Fox had said was that it's a big deal to overturn the board. I didn't know what that meant. I got up for the cross-examination and my second argument. I went back to all my points: "So therefore when he does this (gesture) after the come, it's practical; if I don't put that in, the audience won't understand what's going on. The orgasm is about female pleasure and no one has been hurt by an orgasm that was too long. This is when she reaches a point where she accepts Brandon."
And the anal rape was very important to me because there had been a vaginal rape, and the vaginal rape essentially had made Brandon into a woman - because only a woman can be raped through her vagina. But the anal rape was important because the way to emasculate a man would be to rape him anally, he is eviscerated as man. So that was the death of Brandon. In a movie like this, you have to destroy Brandon at this point so that the movie makes sense. The real rape of Brandon went on for 10 hours, so I was like "I want to show it for 2 min." So I said "if I wanted to be completely accurate I should have the right to have a 15-hour rape." But that's not what I was trying to do. I've tested this movie in front of audiences across the country seven times; I cut it down so that it works for them so I don't see why we can't release it this way. Also if I don't show the rape long enough it's like I'm condoning rape.
So they got back up to give their second argument. And they said nothing.
So I was like "Wow! We totally won!" the ever- optimist. We walked outside, Brad and me, and talked to the guy in charge of the appeals board. And he said "I loved the movie and the clergy weighed in and they love the movie." So I thought "wow, we're getting all the support." It was like a slap on the back. But the minute that happened I knew we were fucked. I just knew there was no way it was going as well as it seemed.
They voted. And said "You did a great job but we're sorry to say you lost - but you just lost by a margin."
I was devastated. I went outside, and my head was ringing and I talked to my lawyer who said "you lost but you won... you won their respect. It was important that you argued because you won their respect and now they'll go easy on the next cut of the movie." But I thought there must be a second appeal.
"No, Kim. There is no second appeal. And you're out of time." I think that was the hardest flight of my life because I knew I had to re-edit the movie and I had no specifications. I just knew I had not to offend these people whom I didn't know how not to offend.
Kirby: So you flew to NY and then what did you do with the film?
Kim: This was very hard. We had to reopen the editing room after I had a movie that worked. The engine was working. That was one of the saddest days. Gearing up all the machines. I had 3 scenes that I had to substantially change so that they would not offend when the whole point was to touch people. I didn't have any money or any time. The producer said "You better cut it so that it works and get an R. You're on a plane tomorrow to Venice, and we'll be able to show the International cut in Venice but we can't show the original cut at the NY film festival. Your entire release schedule is built around all these dates."
So I made 10 different versions. I decided I would make one I don't even feel, then I'd make the one I feel a little and then I'll make the one I feel a lot and by number seven I'll be dead and by the tenth I would not even want to be in the room. So we will make 10 choices..
Kirby: what cut did you end up with?
Kim: We ended up with cut number 1, the least changes. And got the R.
How did we make the choices? This (shows wiping mouth) was "offensive" so I thought maybe if we don't complete the action. You kind of understand what Brandon is doing.... He's just having a moment. It's lost it's meaning but we understand. For those of us who are informed we understand what he's doing, those of us who are not, don't, but that's ok. If nobody knows what's going on it's not offensive.
The orgasm: I thought if the orgasm is offending them it has to do with the sound not the visual because she does not even come for that long; so I changed the sound. And the picture a little. I can't give away my secrets. I can only say that I addressed the concern. And the anal rape I also addressed the concern.
So we had 10 cuts for the Board, and I was terrified. I went off to Venice and screened the international cut, and in all humility I was surprised that it got standing ovation that lasted a long time and all these people came to me and said "we loved Brandon" and my heart broke because that had been my goal in the movie. And there was not a hint of being offended. But still, we were waiting because it could have been the only screening I could have had with that cut. But finally the Board accepted the first one. And it was just a miracle to me.
Kirby: So how did it make you feel to see the R version with an audience?
Kim: I felt bad that Brandon had to be cut down. I felt bad that any meaning was lost because you make the movie for the audience and I felt that they were the ones who suffered. I felt bad but I got over it because for me the trade-off was I could have stuck to my guns and said I'm not cutting my movie, and taken the NC17. But then Fox would not have released my movie and I would never have worked again. But I have DVD version of the movie and I know we have an international cut.
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